“agree”, “AMEN”, “awfully nice”.. Let’s imagine a miracle occurred and tomorrow EITG declared: “We do MP!!!”. Bravo. A wave of enthusiasm (first 2 days). But what then? Then during a half year no any new feature can be added. Cause a porting to MP is a “critical” ultimate operation that cannot be combined with any other changes in any way. So, a next half year (or more if you aren’t lucky) for all your Q you will have only one A: “busy with MP port”. It will be fully true. Next 3-4 months you will hear “busy with MP testing/fixing”. Please think about this a little before say your enthusiastic “GO!”.
So, MP could not be done? No, we didn’t say so. IMO it should be done. But in much more appropriate situation than it is now. When user sees new features are coming and coming, when he sure they will come - so, yes, at this time it’s possible to ask him for some “credit of trust” and take a year for such big work as MP. But now “MP plan” = suicide.
Select another toy for free speech - this one is too big
“agree", “AMEN”, “awfully nice”.. Let’s imagine a miracle occurred and tomorrow EITG declared: “We do MP!!!”. Bravo. A wave of enthusiasm (first 2 days). But what then? Then during a half year no any new feature can be added.
Igors,
These are good points.
We have to assume that creating an MP version of Camera means a major re-write. This is obviously going to be time consuming and, you say, this may halt any other feature development in Camera for what might be a long time (you mention 6 months or more).
There is no doubt that EITG needs to be thinking strategically. I think they have it right.
In development is multi-channel output for Camera, coupled with integration technologies for Maya and Max which should position EI as an easy to use tool that can fit into most studio’s existing production pipelines. This is a very big deal, and I am sure very complex to implement.
This is a great first step into giving EIAS new life by expanding it’s appeal.
The second step “needs” to be MP because the perception is that if MP does not happen soon (i.e take advantage of modern multi-core PC performance) users will begin to look towards alternative solutions for better performance. Most other renderers have MP support now. I have two of them installed on my Mac right now, and a demo of a third that I am evaluating. The current implementation with Renderama “works” but is less than ideal (for still images especially).
I don’t think any of us want to derail what EITG is working on right now, but we do want them to know what technologies we, as their customers, are excited about.
I agree that the conversation should include other enhancements besides “just” MP.
What other features might be useful? What are the cutting/ bleeding edge technologies we see emerging in the industry that we would like to see added to give EIAS the “edge” over competing products?
I’m sure you’re probably thinking I’m being over zealous again. There goes Brian with his dreamer ideas. I suppose I’m guilty. Yet I truly hope you don’t think I’m making such brash statements just because I want to emotionally “charge” the user base. I only make such statements based off my exposure to what I see in the industry and the trends that are emerging with the kind of work I do. Let me say for the record that I do put trust in the work you, Matt and Blair are doing with EIAS. I know things take time and I also realize that MP is something that certainly wont occur overnight. My hope is too see some effort placed towards MP for v8 or v9. The “producer” side of me is always projecting into the future, planning for the next step. I’m also spoiled because I get to work with tools at the major vfx studios that are on the cutting edge of 3D technology and it gets me thinking of where EIAS is now and where it has to go in the future. But as you’ve logically stated (and corrected me)...we’ll get there one step at a time.
As far as Dave pointed out.. what other emerging technologies and trends would place EIAS above the rest? Well I see the following trends:
1. Multiprocessing support. (For standard CPU based rendering solutions)
2. Alternate parallel GPU, hardware based rendering solutions, & realtime shaders.
3. User interactive, realtime dynamic simulations.
4. Gaming engine style previsualization and better 3D to realworld environment interaction.
5. Organic “sculpt” style modeling. (aka Mudbox)
6. Image recognition based motion capture (with out the need for a motion tracking suit)
I’m absolutely in agreement with you that introducing more traditional “new” features into EIAS is important. Especially to catch back up with the other “big” 3D applications out there...but I also propose that by selecting one of the more “radical” emerging technologies, EITG can market itself as a trendsetter again. As far as the ones I listed above, MP is certainly the most directly beneficial to EIAS users especially given the advent of an 8 core computer. Its just nice to have a solid goal in mind to push towards and it unifies the user base with the owners of EIAS when such an acknowledgement is recognized.
Ok, seriously: there is nothing bad in building plans. Same as a necessary of multi-threading is out of the question. But, please sorry, we see not too much realism in your plans. You propose a list with 10 points. Or with 100 (passion has no limts). But who will implement it? How? When? Alas, we never heard answers ;(
IMO in practical work there is no necessary to see so far. It’s enough to understand well an actual task and 1-2 next goals. A few examples:
- Multi-layers.. Looks like a routine, trivial task. Just “a point from list”. Another one “marked checkbox”, right? Absolute NOT! Not all was (and is) clear for us. But who helped us with advice, with his practical experience? As always, Tomas, Jens, and… sorry, but that’s all. Other prefer to build more and more creative plans - it’s easier and safer. Very soon the feature will be in beta-testing and we know well: we can count a few testers only: Jens, Tomas, Hans, Ian. That’s all.
- “image-based illumination” (yes, with HDRI). A popular fashion. With a large dose of “fetish”. But very, very wanted to have. How? Anywhere there are tons of “nice images” and sentences about “large HDRI range”. But there are no even hints to how it’s implemented. That’s what 3D apps don’t hurry to share. Tomas and we are learning theory intensively, but not too much progress/clearness yet. And you? “You see, other apps have soo nice toys, but you, guys, have not! Gimme, gimme!”. Plus “stories about white cow” (veeery fast ray-tracers etc.).
- material preview. Maybe it’s time to ask our leader Blair M. Burtan about his plans in this area?l
So, gentlemen, how about to positioning your plans a bit more near to real life?
So, gentlemen, how about to positioning your plans a bit more near to real life?
What do you suggest they focus on next then?
Plus, I’m sure giving ideas of what the users want is far more than useless, and I’m sure the developers know what they’re doing and won’t be swayed so easily by users questions.
Obviously some “simple” things are difficult to implement (check boxes), and some things not so difficult.
The point of this discussion I think is to give EITG and especially the advisory board ideas to “push” EI development efforts. Obviously there are limited programming resources, timelines, and feature usefulness issues that need to be addressed. EITG should capture some “low hanging fruit” i.e. enhancements that do not take long to implement whether large or small. They should also have some major feature enhancements to be working on long term. Some of these may end up with multiple uses (like the photon mapping which first gave us caustics, but is also the foundation of the GI system). The “wishlist” can be sorted into priorities based on what uers want, and the availability of resources (including time) needed to implement new features.
That being said, here is a “new” feature request/ idea.
How about a “special effects” addition to Camera that could accept “plugins”.
This would be a built in postprocessing engine that would handle adding special effects at the end of the rendering process. The existing Glow Layer system and vector-based motion blur seem to work this way now. They are “added” after the image is finished “rendering”.
The idea is to give post processing effects the ability to access all of the “preliminary” data used to create a final rendered image, including things like Z-buffer data, maybe even the photon map data from the GI calculation.
This might lead to effects that are not possible/ or difficult to achieve in traditional post production.
What’s the point?
One immediate benefit would be a photoshop style depth of field filter based on actual camera data, and Z-buffer. This could look better, and render faster than the current multi-frame system.
This would introduce some basic compositing effects directly into Camera, and could be integrated with the new
multi-layer output feature.
Think about all of the post processing effects that could be possible. These could allow for an entirely new class of EITG and third party products as “rendering FX” plugins for Camera. Imagine an image analysis tool that automatically corrected under or overexposed areas of the scene, or applied special “atmospheric” effects (like glows, fake particles, etc.) based on a combination of the image pixel and actual 3d (polygon, zdepth, photon map) information. Maybe this could enable “fake” blurry RT reflections without the rendering hit?
This could be a unique and “killer” feature. Perhaps not all that hard to “add” to Camera?
What is the full potential of this idea?
What other kinds of effects could be possible with this kind of a system?
Ok..I’m pulling my ideas out of the clouds and back down to earth. You are correct about resources. Can’t build a house if we don’t have any wood or brick. But at the same time, having all that wood and brick is useless if you don’t have a blueprint or a plan. We’re looking to rebuild the house of EI, so what do we want the house to look like?
1. We want an EITG that is healthy and profitable.
2. We want EIAS to be modern and flexible.
3. We’d like to see at least one major version upgrade a year.
3. We need a program that helps us with our careers and businesses and allows us to compete against companies using other applications.
4. We’d like something that doesn’t totally abandon EIAS’ legacy code, but we don’t want legacy code to hold us back either.
5. We’d like to see integration and reliable data exchange with other 3D applications.
6. We want good customer support and strong user to EI owner communication and exchange.
Many think these issues are totally in the hands of EITG to implement and in many ways, they are. However, if we think of EIAS as an organism that is composed not only of EITG, but EITG and its user base together, then the synergy that develops can help revitalize the company. Its true that the owners of EITG are taking the financial risk to rebuild this application, but users are “investing” in the application as well. So a battle plan is needed. That plan has to come from EITG...but here’s some of my ideas.
1. Choose 3 focused markets.
2. Analyze the digital tools and requirements of those markets.
3. See how EIAS currently meets the needs of those markets and where it needs improvement.
4. Construct a logical feature upgrade path based on those markets.
5. Meanwhile...improve PR and marketing with existing user base. Advertise.
6. Select key tools to implement into EIAS and commit existing resources. (As little as they are)
7. Sell, sell, sell. Improve user access to the technology through better sales technology. Use the internet to its best advantage.
8. Reinvest proceeds back into the company. Repeat process.
Eventually, you attempt to diversify the product line by introducing new products and by allowing ways to phase out old and limited technology. Always keep the company tuned to emerging trends (as I listed above in a previous post) and consider investing in radical technology if that technology fits into the pipeline of your primary 3 markets. Dont’ forget training and education.
Obtaining resources for product development is always going to be an issue for a start up company or for bailing out one in distress. It is evident that Brad is committing financial resources to this cause because we’re starting to see the evidence of it with this new website and the release of 6.6. But this is also where users come in. I encourage all users to purchase their 6.6 upgrade. I need to follow my own advice. Because I’m a beta tester, I haven’t purchased one yet...but that’s gonna change. I know money is tight for everyone...I’m trying to sustain a film production company, paralumino and my own personal finances so I know what it means to pinch pennies....but this is now where I appeal to Brad.
Brad..if you want EITG to succeed you gotta break out those pom poms and get involved with your user base with a little cheerleading. Take interest in what we’re doing and let us know what’s going on with the company. The advisory board was a good start, but it needs to go further than that. Electronic newsletters need to go out every quarter. Find ways to fill them with something. Get the word out. Show users how their $99 upgrade investment will ultimately improve their lives and tell us how you intend to put new life back into the company. I think you’ve taken a bold step and I personally believe that I feel momentum within the company for the first time in years. Give and it shall be given back to you.
How about a “special effects” addition to Camera that could accept “plugins”.
This would be a built in postprocessing engine that would handle adding special effects at the end of the rendering process.
Too late This one is a part of multi-layers work and it’s already in process.
If an MP solution for Camera is some time away, do you think there would be any benefit to provide a bridge to hardware specific render engines for EIAS? Perhaps something like this: http://www.artvps.com/page/109/raybox.htm
Ok..I’m pulling my ideas out of the clouds and back down to earth. You are correct about resources.
We cannot comment in details a whole your letter. First, here needs better English than ours, and, after all, we are programmers, not businessmen But let us note a thing we are fully sure. All this promo-demo can be dramatically ineffective without solid, full-featured new EI versions. People are hungry for new features and it’s very possible that some steps (that are absolute good overview) can be appreciated in a wrong way, as “instead” not “add”. IMO it’s not a good idea to check and check a patience of client.
I would like to mention that I like EI camera, and I like renderama when render animation, but in rendering still images (5000 x 4000 pixel or higher) I don’t get the speed I want, and I have 2 dual core PC here, which I can start 4 camera render 4 strips, but the speed I gain is not that much in GI Still compare to animation...I think it is about 50% instead of 300-400%
I understand it is a bit difficult to recode a MP camera, but is there any way to made camera render faster in still images, without heavy work on camera?
If an MP solution for Camera is some time away, do you think there would be any benefit to provide a bridge to hardware specific render engines for EIAS? Perhaps something like this: http://www.artvps.com/page/109/raybox.htm
Just curious.
We think that no. Their software supports 3ds and Maya renderers. Also what to answer for Q that will be immediately asked: “It have a quad Mac (for example). So, why I need to buy a some “box?”
I suppose I’m guilty. Yet I truly hope you don’t think I’m making such brash statements just because I want to emotionally “charge” the user base. I only make such statements based off my exposure to what I see in the industry and the trends that are emerging with the kind of work I do. Let me say for the record that I do put trust in the work you, Matt and Blair are doing with EIAS. I know things take time and I also realize that MP is something that certainly wont occur overnight. My hope is too see some effort placed towards MP for v8 or v9. The “producer” side of me is always projecting into the future, planning for the next step. I’m also spoiled because I get to work with tools at the major vfx studios that are on the cutting edge of 3D technology and it gets me thinking of where EIAS is now and where it has to go in the future. But as you’ve logically stated (and corrected me)...we’ll get there one step at a time.
LOL
